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We actually let a coworker of her know…

total shock that it was me. the bigger “something to talk about” was that a local tv person had the big “C” at the same time. If we asked about her health/needs, it was gossip, any reference to this friend from the same group was talked about. I guess in their eyes, someone with status–tv anchor, vs the teachers aide at a private catholic school that both their kids went to was different.

I think what works so well for what you do is that almost anyone can do it

It is just a little bit here & little bit there. It could be as little as a few dollars on up to what we can imagine. I think my problem is thinking about it before the situation has passed & gotten away from me. It will be a matter of me paying attention in the moment. Thanks for the inspiration!

Oh, as I was about to sign off I remembered how it’s the little things that matter. I remembered when dd was in grade school and dh and were both in school–him in graduate and me in undergraduate school. Dd had had back surgery & we were broke. One day I opened our apartment door to check the mail & realized someone anonymously dropped off a bag of groceries at our door. It was such a blessing! We never knew who dropped it off but God knows & that is what matters. They will be blessed for their generosity. Sometimes we think the small gesture we want to do won’t matter much in the scheme but let me tell you … that bag of groceries meant the world to us! Your small gesture could do the same for someone else.

I prefer to do little things for a lot of people

They are always random and generally spur of the moment. Like paying for the driver’s license of a woman who found herself short of cash and her debit card was at home at the dl bureau. The glow in the dark necklaces for the kids at an event. Paying for the meal of the person in line behind me at an all you can eat buffet. Dropping off bags of feed at a pet shelter, just random things when I see an opportunity.

It’s pretty simple, you need their account number

Then you purchase a money order and mail it to their debt collector with instructions it is to pay off the debt. Getting the account number is the hard part.
If you know who they owe, but not the account number you can also go this route. You get the money order, make it out to the company for the amount you want to pay for them, then you mail it to the individual with no return address with a type written note that says “You have been given a random act of kindness, pay it forward when you can” or something similar. Since the money order is made out to the company they will have to pay it to the company and they can follow through making sure it get credited right.

Hey, if a money order came into that PO Box with no return address, I won’t ask questions!

Or if you prefer a non-goat namesake, we can name something else after you. We have a bunch of chicks due to hatch at any moment, the tractor already has a name but my truck doesn’t, our lead sheep matriarch (very confident, very bold and in your face if you mess with her flock) doesn’t have a name except “hey-knock-it-off!” when she gets too pushy. One of our mouser kitties doesn’t have a name yet, if you like kitties. Then again, for the right price, heck you could become the namesake for whatever you want. A grain combine named “Sharon”……… I’d have someone paint that on the side with really nice lettering. Not everyone gets to say they have a combine named after them. Or we could just name the combine “Generosity”. I sorta like that idea. That would carry with it the spiritual requirement that we donate part of every harvest with that machine. Say, donate it to the food bank or something. But yea, I could work with that idea. Our own spin on the tithing that DR has talked about. We already donate in various ways, but that idea just has a nice ring to it.

OK, was that shameless or what????

Seriously, I know there are folks out there who need it more than we do so by all means send it where it’s truly needed. But it was fun to think about just for that brief moment. Just think, Sharon, we’d be so honored, we’d name a goat after you! Not everyone is so blessed as to have a goat named after them..

Tree houses as well

They are called an attractive nuisance. You can have them, but you better have extra coverage for them. There are lots of little ins and outs on home owners insurance many folks don’t know about. Like if you own over 10 acres, even if you aren’t farming on it you have to have a farm policy. Got cattle or horses? Extra policy in case they get out on the road and cause a wreck. Where water is concerned you are covered on what comes down, but not what comes up unless you have flood insurance. List goes on and on. That’s why everyone should review their policies periodically because the rules change often.

To get back to your original question

– I’d love to take the money going towards our debt snowball (when that’s done of course) and just give it to random people. There is a woman at work who I know is struggling so would love to help — but then I feel like I KNOW she doesn’t manage the money she does have well, so any money I gave her would just get misused. But to just be able to randomly give her a $50 gas card….

Or, for my single, social worker sister, to just call up her mortgage company and make a month’s payment for her — or sponsor a child in Africa in her name anonymously.

That’s a good idea

There is a downside and I’ll present it and see how we can counter it. The king pins (or king pimps) “train” people to blame themselves. This is also the kind of thing people do in abusive marriages. If a husband is abusive, he blames it on his wife (“You made me hit you. You know when supper is late I get angry and have to hit someone. It’s your fault!”). In this case, they know most people will fail, so they teach them to blame themselves. (“This is the greatest opportunity ever and if it’s not working, then you’re not working hard enough!”)

Many people will say something like, “I’ve been in 5 years, but it just hasn’t worked for me because I haven’t worked hard enough.”

One possible counter is to ask people what they have done. If you’re there with someone, start with that. Build up a base of this person talking about how good they are at it, how hard they’ve worked, at the sacrifices they’ve made, then, when they are talking about all that and how hard they’ve worked, ask how long they’ve been in.

That builds up an image of years of work and not making it, as opposed to allowing them to say, “I just didn’t work hard enough.”

I think this may help a little bit

Have him ask the people around him how long they have been in “the business”. I am sure a lot of them have been in for years. Why aren’t they millionaires yet? It is a 3-5 year plan right? Anybody that has been in it for 3+ years should be stinking rich. Why are they still in the stands at the meetings and not on the stage telling their stories?

This part is for the person that has a friend in more-crap America. I just don’t talk to the person about the company and every once in awhile ask how it is going. She always says it is going ok, but I never see her using any of the products anymore so I do not really think she is totally plugged in. I have never gone to one of their meetings but I am sure it is pretty much the same as any of the other ones. But I would like to go to one sometime just to see for myself if it is the same. I have only been to the “Invest tools” conference and it was a joke. I left in the beginning of the thing because I could see it was garbage. I went at the time because I was laid off and my friend wanted to go.
I didn’t really want to go but you do things for friends. So I ended up walking to the mall and shopped. It was much more fun then listening to those blow-hards. If these products are so great why are they giving the secrets away?
Oops I am babbling again. If there are any more more-crap America stories I would love to hear them. Also do they have the same kind MO’s?

The first thing you can do is understand something that will just boggle your mind

and that you will find very hard to accept: this has nothing to do with facts. There is nothing you can tell your friend or show your friend that will prove he’s in a fraudulent organization.

Accept that now and you can find ways to deal with this. If you don’t accept it, you will hurt any efforts you make to deal with your friend.

When he went to the very first open meeting (or any other meeting), he was told, “When you tell people about this, they’ll say it can’t work. Do you want to know why? Because they are jealous and they want to steal your success!” That may seem like a small statement, but it “vaccinates” them against anything you say.

Of course, you’re saying, “But he’s my FRIEND. He knows I wouldn’t want to do that.” Partially true. They are dangling a multi-million dollar golden egg in front of him. If he believes you, then he has to deal with working a 9-5 job until retirement (or whatever work he does). If he believes them, then he “knows” he will be wealthier than he can dream of in just a few short years and will live a life of leisure.

It’s not about whether he can trust you, it’s about whether he wants to believe you or them. Friend vs. everlasting wealth. He’s been hooked.

My ex gf was, literally, a genius. I showed her numbers and facts and brought of things that, by logic proved to her that the only way they were making money was by fraud and she was unwilling to believe it.
She hated her job and hated the idea of having to earn a living for the rest of her life and wanted to believe that she had found the freedom they promised. The facts didn’t matter because she didn’t want to believe them. She wanted to believe the people promising her wealth.

If you present facts that don’t agree with your friend’s brainwashed beliefs (and I don’t use the word brainwashed lightly here, it IS brainwashing), then you will be labelled as “negative” and once you’re labelled that way, everything you say is suspect.

Okay, I’ve run on about that and by now you’re depressed after reading it, but it’s the truth, it’s the way drones think when they’re in a group like this, and it’s easier to face it from the start than to try to ignore it.

Now, going from there, the current thinking is that questions help. The idea is to ask a question, knowing you won’t get an answer. You’ll get a reply. Probe with more questions. The point is to get your friend to THINK through this stuff and to begin to see the contradictions.

Forgive me for taking on an icon like this, but it would be like the process of a kid learning that Santa Claus does not visit every kid over the course of one night. Kids want to believe there is someone kind who will help them and do good things for them and love them unconditionally. They have strong emotional reasons for believing in Santa Claus. Then people say there is no Saint Nick. they don’t want to hear it and won’t believe it. Then they get old enough to see just how big the world is and to wonder how he fits down the chimney.

If you tell a kid these things, they won’t believe it and don’t want to believe it, but if the kid has to start dealing with questions like that, then eventually the facts behind the answers win out.

You are dealing with a 4 year old who does not understand your logic, cannot follow your reasoning, and knows if what you say is true, there is no Santa Claus.

That’s why questions help.

Example: They don’t make money off the conventions.

Question: But there’s 6,000 people paying $100 each. How much is that? That’s $600,000. Isn’t that a lot?

Okay, it’s not that easy. It’d take 3-4 questions to get to that last one and to “set up” your friend so they are ready to hear that question. Then you can ask, “If the coliseum costs $25,000, where does the rest of the money go?” (I checked on coliseums, that’s how I have that figure.)

This is an oversimplification, but the point is to keep probing with questions. You know your friend, we don’t. You will have to get a sense of how far you can push before you have to let up.

Facts won’t help directly. However, knowing facts will help you figure out what questions to ask, so the facts are important, but if presented simply, can push the person in the other direction.

Happy reading!!!

If you go to the “links” section of this forum, you can find MOUNTAINS of cold, hard facts. The “files” section includes outstanding stories of those who’ve been successful in getting a friend/relative out of Quixtar and the predatory Motivational Organizations that are peripheral to Quixtar/Amway.

I recently had to fight with the fact that my best friend is joining Quixtar as an IBO

He and I differ in opinion on this and I can’t make him see that he may be getting himself into something that could end up hurting him financially as well as personally(family). Does anyone have personal experiences that I could relay to him that might help?
He is a very persistent person and it would take hardcore evidence for him to give this up. I just don’t want to see him get hurt as I have a ton of respect for him! Thanks for anything you can provide.

The insurance policy thing changed here because a kid fell off and broke his neck—the side guards failed

He became a quad and remained in a wheelchair and had numerous health issues until his passing 5 yrs later. The parent said had she known it was such a risk, she never would have allowed it.

I think most people I know, haven’t run it by their insurance co, but if someone got hurt….Diving boards are in the same category here—changed after I moved here, so I was grandfathered in, but when I did the pool remodel, I removed it–If I was to sell the house, the buyers couldn’t get insurance on the house

A monthly loan makes payments once/month, or 12 times a year

A true biweekly loan makes payments every other week, or 26 times a year. If you look at the total amount paid on a once/month schedule vs a every-other-week schedule, you’ll end up actually making what works out to be one extra payment on the every-other-week schedule. That’s because each month is slightly more than four weeks. The monthly schedule would have only given you 12 payments, but the biweekly gives you 24 payments, plus 2 more, which is equivalent to that extra.

So for instance, if your monthly mortgage payment was $2000/month, then most cash loans lenders would agree that a biweekly payment plan could be set up such that you’d pay $1000, every two weeks. If you started that payment schedule on January 1st of any given year, at the end of that year you would have paid $26,000 towards the loan, rather than $24,000. That extra payment amount, put at least some extra money towards the principle. Do that year after year, and you’ll pay down the principle slightly faster than you would have if you’d stayed on a once/month payment.

But the savings would only approach the levels they’re talking about if a) you started this payment method right when you started the loan, and b) if you had a 30year mortgage vs a 15 year mortgage. I found their statement about saving that huge $100K amount very misleading, because that assumes a lot about the size of the original loan, the length of the mortgage, the interest rate and how quickly the homeowner begins the every-other-week payment schedule.

Another way to accomplish the same thing as the above, is to pay slightly more on the principle than your existing payment. For instance, if you paid $2200/month instead of the minimum $2000/month, AND ensured that the extra $200/payment went towards principle, you could accomplish that same accelerated paydown of your principle. The thing I like about that approach is that you can custom-tailor the extra according to your paydown goals, AND according to particular budget. Remember that for most loans, that monthly amount is your minimum payment. Very much like with credit cards, you can pay more than that if you choose to, any given month. HOWEVER, some loans apply extra amounts towards the interest or escrow if you don’t specifically apply it towards principle. And some loans don’t allow early payment at all. So check your loan for those details.

There are online calculators where you can experiment with how much money you can save by either switching to a biweekly payment schedule, and/or by paying extra principle each month. You can find those calculators by using a search term like “amortization calculator”.

I haven’t worked a 9-5 job in over 6 years

I just couldn’t live with myself if I stayed in the presidential suite. My Quaker conscience would be getting to me. The same with an Armani suite. True, I drive an antique convertible, but overall, I just don’t feel comfortable going for a lot of the show-off stuff. People only need to show off when they don’t feel good about themselves.

Good idea, but who would watch it?

The drones would just say, “It’s negative!”

It might be good for the few times we have a chance to show it to someone who just saw an open meeting, but it’d have to be done well to convince someone it’s a lie and that the other drones have been brainwashed.

I wonder if anyone has thought of this…

I kow when Quixtar was pitched to me, they brought us DVD’s showing people in their mansions, fancy cars and making millions… A guy retired from his job after 5 years of Quixtar… etc.

How about a DVD of people giving testimony of how they LOST their car, their home, their credit, etc?

So then when we have someone who says they just saw this presentation of all these people making millions… there’s the flip side of the story…..

Might be interesting………….

Remember, focus on the QUESTIONS

Not the facts. It’s the emotional aspect that pulls people in. Nobody gets excited over facts. They get excited over being promised exciting things.
With that being said, scan the archives and look for my posts. Some won’t help, but I go through a lot of facts, give a lot of figures, and bring up a lot of the factual discrepancies.
I’d go into more now, but I don’t have the extra time, so I just suggest an archive search.

Mattress Giant was, generally speaking

a pretty good sales job because they paid during training, and even during the low weeks, you’d receive at least minimum wage (just as part of natural variance, a week can be way up or way down). Plus, the sales managers were generally good coaches. (And plus, we actually sold a product which was ballpark to comparable products. And sometimes, genuinely good deals.)

Gulf Development was a bad sales job because they didn’t pay during training, they didn’t tell us until later that you could expect 6 weeks before you started making money. I worked for them way back in 1983 as a 20 yr old. They sell outdoor signs to businesses. They showed us a film of Zig Ziglar (nothing automatically wrong with that, but it is a sign; positive thinking is a good thing, but I’ve since learned that many shakey outfits greatly over-emphasize it; and the sales manager was sometimes, often a blamer). Immediately after training, they took us on this unannounced field trip to get away from “the negative influences of friends and family.” And that is a huge HUGE red flag. Yeah, the whole thing was a lot like a MLM outfit. And no, there was no guarantee of minimum wage, it was commission all the way.

I would be interested in other people’s experiences, the good, the bad, and the in-between.

We have seen, over and over, as you have seen, that MLMs just don’t work

They’re designed to take money from the low level people and funnel it to the high level people, all the while convincing people that they will soon be at the top and making money.

The best thing any of us can do to help you is to encourage you to GET OUT NOW! Yes, get out before you put more money in it.

It looks like what’s happened to you is that you found yourself with a large debt and you’re looking for a fast way to pay it off. MLMs do not work that way. If it were really easy to just use a magic formula and get rich, don’t you think it’d be well known? If these things really did work and make all who entered them wealthy AND helped the people “higher up” in the pyramid, wouldn’t they just start advertising on TV and everywhere else?

There is no easy or sure fire way to get rich quick. Honestly, you have a better chance getting rich in a casino than in an MLM. I’ve looked at the figures for how many people do well in an MLM and the odds show that you’ve got a better chance of getting rich playing blackjack or some other card game at a casino.

To be honest, if you want to pay off the debt, you’ll need to do it the old fashioned way: find a good job that pays well. Or, better yet, find a good job that you love and want to do. Then you’ll enjoy it and do well at it.

Sorry for being so cold-hearted, but that’s the bottom line. Nobody here will want to help you with an MLM because we’ve all seen what a pack of lies all of them are.

There are two schools of thought on

paying your mortgage early in the manner described below, and then the issue of whether or not your mortgage company would even allow it. Paying biweekly or paying 1/12th extra every month does save some on interest over the entire life of the loan. Most mortgage companies aren’t keen on the bi-weekly payment option, unless you’re paying ahead – pay the monthly note on time, then pay 2 weeks later for instance.

I think everybody should look at a full amortization table of their loan to see exactly how much interest they are paying on the life of the loan and then make adjustments to pay more on the PRINCIPLE of their loan.

I am NAZAR,firstly i am kindly requesting please be with me little time to hear my LIFE STORY!

Please! i was doing my own business before and it’s floped. Left with ‘Big Financial Burden’. Then i was struggling too much with many finanical problems somebody told me that doing MLM will solve all the problems. I tried one and another and another…… many but nothing succeed. The only way left going to work but as you know it was not only solving problems but also finding very difficulties to meet the two end. Then now recently agin i came back to MLM by introducing my friend but it was toooo slow and stoped now. Then he brought another one that giving hope and start generating little income even slowly and there is hope it will success but only the problem is downbuilders/referrals. So any body can help me in any way please! i am begging to you all. Friends! i dont want to be rich just to survive first then if i can solve the ‘financial burdens’ (i had due to business flop) before i die! That is all freinds!

Any help is appreciated

In May, my wife got involved with an MLM – Nefful USA. She is a caring, nurturing person, who leans towards belief in “alternative” medicines, and these guys sucked her in, and I don’t know how to get her out.

I have tried arguing, pleading, reasoning, even trying to help her be successful, hoping that she would see that even with my help (I run the Sales department for a $25 million real company) that this MLM was a sham. Nothing works. She belives the testimonies from people who have miraculously healed everything from hangnails to Parkinson’s disease by wearing clothing that generates “ions”. To me, it looks like acrylic, but costs like sable.

But she is putting in about 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. I guess at that rate she is making about a quarter an hour, but is convinced she is on the road to riches.

I have seen similar comments frm others in posts here. How do you get through to someone who mixes up a business with a cult? Deos anyone know about these crooks at Nefful?

There is a post in the moderation queue that is strongly

I’ve been able to see it and it’s the kind of thing that we’d all never see on the list because of the content. There are parts of it that are so typical of MLM-speak and reminded me so much of the mis-truths, mis-representations, and mis-directions of “The Plan” when I was asked my my ex-gf to see it, that I’ve asked Paine to let it through.

Why?

I’ve posted on logical fallacies before and one thing we’ve talked about over and over and over are the ways MLMs twist the truth.

Well, this is a perfect example of that. It’s statements made by the faithful, considered by the faithful to be a true representation of how wonderful their group is and why everyone in the world should join.
It’s typical MLM-speak, which means it pretends to make sense and even seems to make sense when read late at night, after a few beers, but, when examined with the slightest focus on logic, falls to pieces in the light of day.

So, by my request, this post will be let through.

Then I’m going to take it apart, piece by piece, not caring if the
original poster can respond or not. My intent is not to belittle or to call names, but to take the typical recruitment BS and create a template we can all use to focus on what is wrong with with these speeches.

It may help, at some point, when we hear from someone who has just been exposed to the big lie because we can start a discussion and ask them questions about what they’ve heard, repeat (roughly) what’s been said, then use more questions to get them to see how the statement is so misleading.

So if you hate the post or find it offensive, blame me. I ask that others join with analyzing what is said, but not in a mean or vindictive way. Do this dispassionately so we can focus on truth, not anger or other feelings or opinions. The purpose is not to call anyone names, but to understand the fallacies and to deal with them.

If you do find the post offensive, I would suggest finding the parts that you find to be untrue or rude and pointing them out. After all, if a person doesn’t see their mistakes, they can’t learn from them.